In the latest installment of POLITICO’s 15 Conversations series, Thomas-Greenfield talks with Smith, a erstwhile USAID administrator, President Joe Biden’s planetary Covid effect coordinator and present caput of the ONE Campaign, astir however to marque definite much women are progressive successful crafting the aboriginal of the satellite — and wherefore that would beryllium amended for everyone.
Smith, for example, thinks much women successful complaint of the planetary Covid effect could person boosted its effectiveness. “I thin to deliberation women are beauteous bully astatine process, and managing a planetary pandemic is simply a batch of process,” she says. “And I deliberation that was missing.”
Still, Smith and Thomas-Greenfield are optimistic. Looking astir the satellite contiguous — from Iran to the U.S. — they spot women becoming much political, much outspoken, and little consenting to tolerate repression. It mightiness instrumentality immoderate time, but “I expect these young women to alteration the world,” says Thomas-Greenfield.
Held astatine POLITICO’s headquarters, this speech has been edited for length. You tin ticker the video supra and work a afloat transcript below.
Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield So connected Iran, it’s a question that we’ve been asked regularly: How tin we beryllium supportive of the women of Iran? And my effect to that question is they request to perceive from us. They request to perceive that we springiness them motivation support, but we can’t propulsion them into the streets. They’re being courageous. They’re being brave, but they’re being killed. And truthful our enactment has to beryllium motivation support, but it besides has to beryllium successful the country of accountability, similar however bash we clasp the morality constabulary accountable? So we enactment immoderate of them nether sanctions. I don’t cognize whether you deliberation that that’s an attack we should take. You’ve done this benignant of enactment before.
Gayle Smith Sure. I deliberation the different happening that’s absorbing astir this is that Iran has been a overseas argumentation situation for arsenic agelong arsenic I tin remember. And present you yet person thing happening which is fundamentally political. I mean, successful the tiny “p” sense, right? It’s citizens. It’s women and girls of each ages saying “enough,” like, “we’re not doing this.” And I deliberation that gives america an opportunity, not just, arsenic you say, to basal with them, but to nonstop a connection that adjacent successful authorities and successful each these countries, women are a almighty force.
I mean, you remember, we some worked connected Liberia for a agelong time. That statement that yet came astir that led to a pistillate becoming the president of Liberia (Ellen Johnson Sirleaf). Women had a full batch to bash with those negotiations.
But I deliberation usually politics, overseas argumentation is talked astir arsenic though it’s conscionable men.
Thomas-Greenfield I emotion you mentioning Liberia. I served arsenic the ambassador to Liberia, and I saw those women astatine work. And the men were inactive problems successful trying to determination the state forward.
And arsenic we look astatine the concern astir the satellite wherever women person been engaged, you spot change, you spot movement. And we’re seeing question successful Iran: It’s happening. It’s happening [also] down the scenes. The authorities of Iran wants to blasted the U.S., they privation to blasted everybody for what is happening successful Iran but themselves. But we request to applaud those women.
Smith I deliberation we do. And I deliberation we request to underscore the information that they tin blasted whoever they want. [But] it is perfectly evident that this is the pistillate citizens of Iran. Nobody is telling them what to do.
They’ve taken the bull by the horns and they’ve decided they are going to crippled their ain futures, and you can’t propagandize yourself astir oregon done that.
Thomas-Greenfield No, no.
Smith And it’s them. And I deliberation we request to support the spotlight connected them, but basal perfectly with them. It’s extraordinary.
Thomas-Greenfield It truly is.
Smith It’s 1 of the astir inspirational things happening connected the satellite close now.
Thomas-Greenfield And it’s truthful inspiring to different women elsewhere successful the satellite who are experiencing akin types of situations. Afghanistan comes to caput wherever the Taliban are forcing women to beryllium accompanied by a antheral erstwhile they spell successful public, to wholly screen themselves and not allowing them to spell to school. And those women are demonstrating arsenic well. We’re not seeing arsenic overmuch of it successful the quality arsenic we’re seeing with Iran close now. But Afghan women are besides being extraordinarily brave.
Smith Yeah, no, I saw a communicative astir Afghan girls demonstrating that they wanted to spell to school. And I mean, there’s a Washington person who’s a large defender of our overseas assistance fund who said, “You cognize what the Taliban’s acrophobic of? Taliban’s acrophobic of a miss with education.”
Thomas-Greenfield Yes. Yes. We’ve been engaging with different Muslim countries to get them to prosecute with the Taliban. Indonesia, for example, has been extraordinarily proactive successful engaging the Taliban connected however to code the issues of women successful the Quran, due to the fact that their mentation is not an mentation that has been bought into by truthful galore different countries arsenic well.
Again, we can’t instrumentality the Taliban astatine their word. We person to justice them connected their deeds. But we cannot fto the unit up connected them. And having the dependable of the caput general, having the dependable of different members, the dependable of different subordinate states, but having women and girls explicit their ain desires for state and for an education. I deliberation it’s important for the Taliban to hear.
Smith It’s important and it’s precise hard to crook that off. You tin apprehension and you tin sprout and you tin suppress. But I deliberation erstwhile that’s retired of the box, you’re going to person a full batch of radical who are going to beryllium supporting, voting with, lasting for those girls and women.
Thomas-Greenfield Absolutely.
Smith And I’m beauteous definite the Taliban’s watching what’s happening successful Iran close present arsenic well.
Thomas-Greenfield They are watching that very, precise closely. And they should be.
You know, I deliberation radical astir the satellite ticker what is happening successful the United States. They look to america arsenic an illustration of what they want. And occasionally we disappoint them.
And we’re seeing that disappointment now. But we’re besides showing them that we tin combat against these forces and rise our voices against these forces.
And I deliberation that inspires different women astir the satellite to spot however women successful the United States enactment to code the akin issues that they’re facing successful their ain countries.
Smith I deliberation that’s right. And I deliberation a batch of radical ticker the United States, you’re perfectly right. It’s besides important for america to beryllium humble successful that and concede the constituent that we are imperfect. Which, by the way, I deliberation helps america successful discussions with different countries.
Because if we travel successful and say, well, we’ve got each sorted …
Thomas-Greenfield “Yeah, look, we got it right, conscionable bash it our way.”
Smith … That doesn’t enactment truthful well. And I deliberation what we’re seeing is immoderate immense obstacles, I deliberation immoderate steps backward [in the U.S.] But astatine the aforesaid time, much and much women, interestingly, I deliberation crossed generations, are organizing, becoming much progressive successful their communities, much progressive politically successful the United States.
More and much women candidates moving from the section level each the mode up. And I deliberation that’s a inclination that’s not going to stop.
I mean, and again, I deliberation immoderate clip that a people, whether it’s by virtuousness of sex oregon contention oregon religion, is successful a presumption of having its rights afloat oppressed oregon chipped distant at, they’re going to propulsion back. They’re going to propulsion backmost and they’re going to organize. And past shows that and I deliberation that’s what we’re seeing successful the U.S.
So I deliberation we’ve got to support that up and recognize that the struggles of women astir the world, they’re each connected the aforesaid spectrum.
Thomas-Greenfield And they ne'er spell distant completely.
Smith No, no.
Thomas-Greenfield We perpetually person to support fighting. We person to support raising these issues. We person to support advocating for women’s rights, wherever they are being pushed against wherever it happens anyplace successful the world.
Smith And I deliberation we’ve got to punctual radical that women and girls isn’t a broadside contented implicit here. It’s portion and parcel of the societal cloth successful the assemblage politic. And the infinitesimal we enactment it implicit connected the broadside and say, let’s person a peculiar initiative.
Thomas-Greenfield We sideline them.
Smith We’re compounding the problem.
Thomas-Greenfield So, Gayle, tin I inquire connected Covid: How bash you spot america addressing those issues arsenic we look astatine the interaction that it has had connected women? Did we instrumentality those kinds of issues into account?
Smith No. I think, unfortunately, the pandemic was politicized aboriginal on.
You know, the archetypal aboriginal discussions was whose responsibility is this? And that’s an important issue, but that’s not mostly your champion starting constituent erstwhile you’re looking astatine the opening of a planetary pandemic. I deliberation what we cognize is that the wellness impacts are inactive very, precise overmuch successful play.
The economical interaction connected women has been extraordinary. More women person mislaid their jobs. More women person suffered connected the wellness attraction beforehand due to the fact that attendant wellness attraction [systems] broke down and women economically were wounded particularly hard, including successful debased and mediate income countries wherever a batch of women are successful the informal sector. So determination was nary relief, determination was nary support, determination was nary backup.
And I think, you know, possibly if we’d had different acceptable of actors successful the country erstwhile the pandemic was archetypal declared, we could person travel retired with a antithetic system. And I deliberation 1 area, had determination been much women successful the room, for example. I thin to deliberation women are beauteous bully astatine process, and managing a planetary pandemic is simply a batch of process. How are we going to signifier this? How are we going to signifier that? Who’s going to instrumentality this responsibility? Who’s going to instrumentality that responsibility? And I deliberation that was missing.
And of course, the biggest happening is that the satellite was and remains beauteous fragmented.
Thomas-Greenfield And erstwhile you look astatine the inequities, successful peculiar successful Africa, wherever astatine the aboriginal stages, little than 10 percent of the colonisation was vaccinated.
Smith It’s inactive low. And I think, look, I americium arrogant of what the United States did, and [what] I deliberation radical similar you and I were capable to bash unneurotic erstwhile I went concisely backmost into the administration, successful presumption of making vaccines available.
But I think, radical increasing up each implicit the satellite are going to person arsenic 1 of their basal facts taught successful schoolhouse that erstwhile determination was a planetary pandemic, affluent countries had vaccination rates and entree that was successful the scope of 70 percent plus. And mediocre countries were successful the scope of 14 to 20 percent.
Thomas-Greenfield Yeah.
Smith If you deliberation about, for example, however bash you instrumentality what we’ve seen astir the relation of women successful bid building, successful struggle negotiations and truthful on, however bash we grow that and benignant of physique it into the system? You know, 1 of my colleagues ever says, if you’re not astatine the table, you’re connected the menu.
Thomas-Greenfield Yes.
Smith I deliberation adjacent erstwhile we conceive of bid negotiations, the main governmental players are often men. So we look to men for the solution alternatively than saying, who are the large stakeholders successful the result of this?
Because the motivation, and men are stakeholders, men and boys are, but women and girls are large stakeholders successful the result of a struggle solution process. So they request to beryllium determination from the opening alternatively than conscionable being the beneficiaries. But I deliberation we’ve got to flip it connected its head.
Thomas-Greenfield Yeah, we thin to look astatine them arsenic victims.
Smith Yes.
Thomas-Greenfield Victims who person to beryllium addressed alternatively of seeing them arsenic participants to addressing the problems of victimization that includes everyone.
And to get that crossed has been extraordinarily difficult, though I deliberation we’ve made a batch of progress. But I volition archer you, adjacent today, I volition locomotion successful a country and look astatine the table, and there’s not a azygous pistillate sitting astatine the array but me.
Smith Yeah.
Thomas-Greenfield And truthful I’ve recovered that I person to — I can’t conscionable beryllium astatine the array and not notation that.
Smith I ideate you telephone it retired beauteous rapidly erstwhile you beryllium down.
Thomas Greenfield Yeah, I telephone it retired quickly. But what has been astonishing to maine is however uncomfortable the men are. They bash it and they cognize they should person women successful the room. And erstwhile you rise it, they’re uncomfortable.
But they don’t marque the determination upfront that it is important to person their women colleagues sitting astatine the array with them. And truthful for radical similar you and I, who ever person a spot astatine the table, we person to beryllium voices of advocacy for the women who are not astatine the table.
Smith I deliberation that’s right. And I deliberation the different happening is we’ve got to physique retired the pipeline of women that are coming into the systems, whether it’s successful the U.S. government, whether it’s successful departments, ministries, decision-making bodies astir the world, due to the fact that excessively often it’s the lawsuit that it’s men that request to determine whether they should see immoderate different women.
We request to get to the constituent wherever it is men and women, women and men, deciding whether they’ve got the close delegation.
Right. But to bash that, we’ve got to get much women successful the system. And I deliberation you and I person been astatine the enactment we bash for a while.
Thomas-Greenfield Yeah.
Smith And I deliberation successful astir countries astir the world, including here, we’ve seen, I think, important betterment there. Not enough.
And I deliberation wherever we’ve seen the slightest is successful the hard power, nationalist security, negotiations implicit war, those kinds of issues. We’ve inactive got immoderate superior enactment to bash to get a amended balance.
Thomas-Greenfield And successful governmental powerfulness circles. So [Liberian] President Sirleaf has enactment unneurotic a mentoring programme for young women engaged successful politics. You know, from however you tally a run to however you negociate a governmental position. And we person to bash much of that, due to the fact that truthful galore young women don’t get the mentoring, they don’t get the coaching. They’re not brought into the ellipse astatine a young property truthful that they larn it connected the mode up. And truthful galore of them are not prepared for success.
Smith I deliberation If we had a amended sex equilibrium successful a batch of these places, processes would change, discussions would change.
Thomas-Greenfield And conscionable to springiness you an example, rape was ne'er seen arsenic a instrumentality of war. It was an enactment that was taken. And present we cognize that rape of women has go a instrumentality of war. And it’s women that brought that to the table, truthful that we tin clasp radical accountable. You know, we’re holding them accountable for atrocities: But rape is 1 of those atrocities.
Smith But, you know, portion of the crushed I deliberation women rise that, successful my acquisition — and I privation to beryllium precise cautious astir making sweeping generalizations — I deliberation women are much comfy raising uncomfortable issues.
I person recovered successful my work, successful my idiosyncratic life, I’m successful a meeting. I’m waiting for a meeting. You’re astatine the airport. You’ve conscionable met idiosyncratic who’s connected the delegation from different country. If you’ve got 2 oregon 3 women sitting around, it takes astir 4 to 7 minutes earlier your speech includes things that are idiosyncratic oregon sensitive, right. We are utilized to, [and] we speech astir these things each the clip and, I think, breaking done and raising issues that are taboo oregon that cipher wants to speech about.
Putting rape connected the array arsenic present an unluckily progressively communal enactment of warfare and governmental violence, naming what happens to young girls who are HIV affirmative due to the fact that they’ve been joined young oregon they person nary economical prime but to merchantability their ain bodies. Putting those issues connected the table, I thin to deliberation women are much inclined to rise them.
Thomas-Greenfield We bash and they’re not frivolous issues.
There was this inclination that these were broadside issues.
Smith “These are your issues. These are brushed issues. Oh, we truly should bash thing for you, Linda, connected that issue. We tin person a peculiar event.”
No, no, no, no. We request to enactment this astatine the halfway of the table.
You and I person an vantage arsenic women successful a batch of the environments we’ve worked successful due to the fact that we’re tall. We accidental what we think.
I spent a batch of clip successful a batch of warfare zones. I cognize your communicative of Rwanda, wherever your beingness was astatine risk. So we don’t thin to beryllium frightened of anything. And I deliberation if I was to say, what compromise person I made, I deliberation aboriginal successful my vocation — but not by overmuch — determination are astir apt immoderate cases wherever I privation I had spoken up much forcefully.
I mean I whitethorn person raised the constituent forcefully, but having been voted down oregon countered, I’m definite determination were immoderate times that I didn’t say, “No, sorry, we’re going to spell different round.”
Thomas-Greenfield I was sitting successful a country successful the past twelvemonth and I had a idiosyncratic successful that country accidental to me, “When you were selected for this position, we thought you were going to beryllium a bully girl.”
Smith Whoa!
Thomas-Greenfield Yeah, yeah. And I boiled over.
But I didn’t stroke my apical — and I’m aggravated astatine myself, today, that I didn’t stroke my top.
Smith Huh.
Thomas-Greenfield I thought, OK, they’re pressing my buttons. I’m not going to fto them property my buttons.
Smith So, did you telephone them out, but calmly?
Thomas-Greenfield I ignored it. And I americium seething to this moment.
Smith Can you susurration to maine who it is and we could spell get them.
Thomas-Greenfield I’ll archer you later, but I’m seething. I seethe each clip I deliberation astir it. And I’ve been waiting for the adjacent infinitesimal — you ne'er get a 2nd accidental to stroke your top, I volition accidental that.
And I’m sitting determination and I’m like, if I stroke my top, it’s going to beryllium similar an aggravated Black woman.
Smith Yep, yep.
Thomas-Greenfield So you’re not going to fto your buttons beryllium pushed. You’re going to amusement you’re an big present and you’re going to conscionable disregard that.
Don’t bash that: You should ne'er disregard an insult.
Smith I deliberation you had the close to beryllium an aggravated Black pistillate successful that instance.
Thomas-Greenfield Never fto anybody disregard an insult similar that.
I didn’t disregard it, I mean literally. You know, and I conjecture my biggest fearfulness was erstwhile I blew my top, the full gathering was going to stroke up. And I didn’t privation that to happen.
I wanted to person a calm response, but I couldn’t person a calm effect due to the fact that I was truthful angry. And past aft the fact, I stayed aggravated due to the fact that I didn’t speech astir it.
Smith Well I, yeah, I’ve done the aforesaid happening sometimes of conscionable not saying thing and past wanting to spell find them.
Thomas-Greenfield Well, my happening was, I was reasoning that erstwhile Nancy Pelosi said the different time that she wanted to punch retired a definite idiosyncratic [then President Donald Trump], that’s precisely the mode I felt. Like, “I’m going to get up and conscionable bash this.” But I knew I couldn’t.
But I could person utilized my voice.
Smith Here’s the thing, tin you, no, you can’t — punching idiosyncratic would not person been good.
But I deliberation determination is this connection to women that you’re expected to beryllium a bully girl, right.
If men successful elder positions nether accent suffer their temper occasionally, it’s unpleasant, but it’s mostly tolerated. And if women do, it’s perceived differently.
I’m optimistic successful the situation that we’ve lived successful — the policy, benignant of Washington, benignant of planetary affairs satellite — for a mates of reasons.
One is that I find young women, generally, oregon astatine slightest galore of them with whom I work, it wouldn’t hap to them not to stroke up. Right. Because they haven’t had 30, 40 years of being expected to beryllium a bully girl, of that benignant of mantra being retired there.
But the different happening is, I spot a batch of antithetic behaviour successful young men. And I deliberation that’s a portion of it, due to the fact that it’s not conscionable women walking successful the country and asserting themselves: It’s men changing. And to beryllium fair, determination are a batch that have, but I’ve seen a existent displacement among radical a batch younger than we are. It gives maine immoderate hope.
Thomas-Greenfield Yeah. I truly consciousness hopeful due to the fact that what I spot is that these women are not forced to marque choices that we had to make.
Smith Yes.
Thomas-Greenfield They don’t person to marque choices. They conscionable bash it. And they person truthful galore options that we didn’t have. And they cognize it and they’re empowered. And I americium very, precise hopeful.
I expect these young women to alteration the world. That my small four-year-old granddaughter, who says “I tin bash it,” is going to marque a quality successful the world.
Smith Yeah, it’s having the assurance to cognize you tin bash it arsenic opposed to having to beryllium told that you can.
Thomas-Greenfield Yes.
Smith If there’s idiosyncratic I was going to thank, surely successful this satellite of Washington, it would beryllium Madeleine Albright.
You know, Madeleine Albright, caput of state, ambassador to the U.N., she’s Madeleine Albright. But she was besides a precise regular mean quality being, woman, mother. Right. She’s precise accessible.
Thomas-Greenfield Grandmother.
Smith And grandma and aunt. But she was besides a mentor, person and protagonist to virtually hundreds of radical successful the overseas argumentation community, and particularly women. She’s a — Madeleine Albright was a gem.
Thomas-Greenfield So my nonstop aforesaid person, I was conscionable reasoning astir her.
I deliberation astir her each the clip due to the fact that I’m sitting successful that seat wherever she sat arsenic the archetypal pistillate from the U.S. to service successful that position.
She said to maine erstwhile I started the occupation that she had the “G7” [women’s web astatine the U.N.] — I archer this communicative each the clip — and I was truthful excited erstwhile I got to New York and I came backmost and I said, “Madeleine, you know, I started my G5, but I’m truthful disappointed. I person 2 less women than you had connected the Security Council.” And she said, “Linda, determination were lone 7 women successful the full U.N. subordinate authorities system. I was the lone pistillate connected the Security Council.”
I had to admit that we person made immoderate progress. We inactive person a batch of advancement to go. But Madeleine Albright is an icon.
She is an illustration to each of us. And not conscionable to women, to men. The time she died, I was successful the General Assembly, lasting up astatine the podium, holding backmost tears, and each azygous talker who came aft maine talked astir Madeleine Albright. The Indonesian [ambassador] said helium went into his overseas work due to the fact that of Madeleine Albright. She taught truthful galore different imperishable representatives astatine the Security Council. I’ve met respective presidents who took her classes [at Georgetown University] erstwhile they were younger.
So she is simply a relation exemplary to the world. It’s not conscionable to women, but it’s the full world. So I americium truthful arrogant that I’m sitting successful a seat that she sat successful and that I person her — alternatively of wearing pins, which I would emotion to deterioration but I’m not arsenic stylish arsenic she is — but I truly bash consciousness similar I person her sitting connected my shoulder, whispering successful my receptor each azygous day.
Smith Well, you’re going to beryllium connected the shoulders of a batch of young women going forward.
Thomas-Greenfield Well, that’s my hope. And I cognize you are.
Smith Thanks, L.T.G.
Thomas-Greenfield Thank you truthful much, Gayle. It’s fantastic to beryllium sitting present with you and you’re my relation model.
Smith Oh, and you’re mine.
Thomas-Greenfield Thank you.
English (US)