The Big Payback’s Erika Alexander and Whitney Dow on reparations in America - Digital Trends

When Erika Alexander (Living Single, John Lewis: Good Trouble) and Whitney Dow (Two Towns of Jasper, Whiteness Project) archetypal acceptable retired to creat a prjct astir reparations, they expected to marque a thesis movie astir the statement surrounding H.R. 40, a 30-year-old Congressional measure that would found a committee to survey slavery and see reparations for Black Americans. Plans shifted upon gathering Alderman Robin Rue Simmons and learning of her pursuit to walk the archetypal government-funded reparations programme successful Evanston, Illinois.

The effect became The Big Payback, a documentary that follows Simmons’s efforts successful Evanston and the combat to walk H.R. 40. Featuring interviews with Simmons, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas), and different assemblage leaders, The Big Payback is a presumption into the authorities down reparations and however it affects communities connected a section and nationalist level. In an interrogation with Digital Trends, co-directors Alexander and Dow explicate the explanation of reparations and sermon the arguments for and against reparations, and arsenic good arsenic who should beryllium liable for paying the debt.

The Big Payback, LLC / Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee sits with Evanston, IL Alderwoman, Robin Rue Simmons, successful the Congresswoman's Washington, DC office

Note: This interrogation has been edited for magnitude and clarity. 

Digital Trends: I privation to commencement with the explanation of reparations due to the fact that astir radical judge it’s conscionable money. That does correspond a immense information of it, but aft watching the documentary, you find retired determination are much elements to reparations than conscionable the financials. To you, what is the explanation of reparations?

Erika Alexander: Reparations is the making of amends for a incorrect 1 has done by paying wealth to, [therefore] helping, those who person been wronged. Or compensation paid by a defeated state. That’s truly what it is. In this sense, it’s reparations for the descendants of the enslaved Africans and their descendants by the U.S. government for harm, not lone from slavery, but from Jim Crow policies, legislation, [and] each these things that person been interred successful the American fabric. They would similar them to spot to it, code it, and springiness an apology with nary conditions.

Whitney Dow: Yeah, I conscionable typed it successful a GPT chat to spot what it says [laughs]. It’s the enactment of repairing a wrong. And I deliberation it works successful 2 directions. What’s absorbing astir reparations, for me, is that it’s truly astir repairing an injury. Whether it’s making amends, making an apology, [or] making monetary payments, I deliberation erstwhile radical deliberation of reparations, and Erika has talked astir this a just magnitude before, it’s not conscionable the thought of conscionable repairing the wounded to Black people, but it’s repairing the relationship.

It’s repairing the narration betwixt Black and White Americans. It besides means repairing White people. As a White person, I judge you’re surviving successful a authorities of cognitive dissonance wherever you are trying to negociate this communicative that you’ve told astir yourself, which has immoderate holes successful it. It’s truly hard to support holding that successful play, truthful I deliberation that portion of the repair is besides for the White assemblage to repair itself.

How did your concern commencement connected this project? When did you determine to partner?

Alexander: Joy Reid. Do you privation to archer the story, Whitney? The large Joy Reid is simply a person of some of ours.

Dow: Yes. We some weirdly vectored done Joy Reid. I was talking to her, and Erika was talking to her, and she said, “You got to conscionable my person Erika. She’s funny successful reparations.” And she said, “Erika, you don’t privation to conscionable my person Whitney [laughs].” We met, and we truly deed it off. I deliberation 1 of the absorbing parts of this thing, and I’m not going to sugarcoat it, is this enactment is truly hard.

Working connected a taxable arsenic analyzable and fraught arsenic contention relations is hard. Working connected a taxable astir reparations is adjacent harder, but moving connected it successful a shared power capableness crossed contention and crossed sex creates a batch of challenges. I was fortunate capable to person a spouse successful Erika. Sometimes, it’s much important to person shared goals than shared motivations. I deliberation that we ever had the aforesaid shared goal. And Joy, for immoderate reason, saw that successful america erstwhile she enactment america together.

The Big Payback, LLC / Robin Rue Simmons, nationalist person for section reparations successful Evanston IL

This task started with the legislature reparations proceeding successful 2019 with Rep. Jackson Lee and H.R. 40. For radical who whitethorn not recognize the specifics oregon intent of the bill, what is H.R. 40?

Alexander: H.R. 40 is simply a survey measure that’s successful Congress. It was archetypal introduced by Congressman John Conyers [D-Michigan] arsenic a measure to survey reparations and their effects. And to marque recommendations …

Dow: For due remedies.

Alexander: For due remedies. By the way, that was going to beryllium the sanction of this film, Appropriate Remedies. It was that or The Big Payback. Whitney wanted Appropriate Remedies, and I wanted The Big Payback.

Dow: I didn’t privation to scare White people. I was like, “The Big Payback? The Big Payback’s coming. Holy shit! Let’s get retired of here!” [laughs]

Alexander: But you cognize what I said? I said, “Scare White people? You scaring everybody off. Nobody wants to spot a movie called Appropriate Remedies.” I said this sounds similar a cause for constipation. So I said, “We’re not gonna bash that here.” Just truthful you know, Dan, however we lick things, due to the fact that of reparations, I ever win. That’s conscionable what it’s going to be. Appropriate Remedies. Lord? Mm [shakes head]. That’s what H.R. 40 is. It’s been stuck determination for 30 years, and Sheila Jackson Lee moved it for astatine slightest a House vote.

Dow: We got entree to the Judiciary Committee hearings. We got entree to movie the markup league of the bill. We filmed the statement successful the markup session, and it was voted retired of committee. It was not lone the archetypal clip it was voted out, but it was the archetypal clip it was adjacent brought to a vote.

John Conyers would taxable this measure for 30 years. The committee would garbage to adjacent instrumentality it up for debate, fto unsocial a vote. Representative Jackson Lee managed to not lone get it voted retired of committee but besides has adjacent to 200, if not implicit 200, co-sponsors connected the bill. It’s conscionable a question of whether the enactment volition bring it to the floor. We’ll spot if [Republican House Speaker] Kevin McCarthy wants to bring this to the floor.

Alexander: That’s wherefore they’re looking for an enforcement bid from [President Joe] Biden to bypass that and get connected with it.

Do you deliberation it volition ever hap portion Biden’s successful office?

Alexander: I deliberation it indispensable happen. I don’t cognize if it volition ever happen. That’s a bully question. Everything is simply a governmental calculation, and I tin spot wherefore helium avoided it earlier these past elections. After a while, particularly for Black people, they’re looking astatine it similar you can’t support pushing this to the side. Not lone is it not fair, but it’s wrong.

No 1 should beryllium that acrophobic oregon cipher that it mightiness harm them the astir if they did it. It’s already harming not lone Black radical but each sorts of people. Poor radical and each these different radical person been harmed by policies that they enactment successful to halt oregon contradict Black people, but it ended up denying mediocre Whites and everyone else, truthful it needs to beryllium handled.

While filming successful 2019, you get this connection astir Alderman Robin Rue Simmons, idiosyncratic who is tackling reparations astatine a section level successful Evanston. Take maine done however and wherefore you decided to displacement the constituent of presumption to Alderwoman Simmons.

Dow: Well, erstwhile we truly started making the film, it was a very, very antithetic film. It was much of a thesis film. It was shooting a batch of radical successful the workplace connected a greenish screen. It was going to person animation and archival [footage] and a B-roll. We were going to usage the statement astir H.R. 40 arsenic a spot of a communicative motor to transportation it through. About a fewer months into filming, 1 of our producers saw this nonfiction connected Robin Rue Simmons that she had passed this bill. There was going to beryllium an lawsuit that opened the movie astatine the church, wherever they announced this programme to the community.

We jumped connected a level and flew retired there, enactment a unit together, and started filming. We said to ourselves that we were truly making a movie astir however past manifests successful the present. Well, present is existent past being made successful the present, truthful it truly became a mode of doing this micro and macro story. We person this nationalist communicative taking spot astatine a glacial pace, and past we person this representational section communicative that allowed america to truly unpack the details of however thing similar this works.

What stood retired astir Alderman Simmons during this process? When did you cognize you made the close determination to displacement the movie toward her work?

Alexander: I deliberation we did cognize close away: She is extraordinary. She has a beauteous mode astir her, and it’s easy. But she was besides precise honest. Very soon aft we arrived, she said, “Well, I don’t truly cognize if I should bash this.” But she knew she wanted to bash this for the community. They needed to cognize however it was documented.

Even though she was hesitant arsenic a person, she understood her spot successful past close away. This was going to beryllium thing extraordinary. She besides naively thought, “Oh. I’m going to bash this, and past the cameras volition spell away. It volition each beryllium over, and I’ll beryllium backmost to my aged life.” We looked astatine her and laughed and said, “Is she crazy? She’s the Rosa Parks of reparations.”

I was bittersweet for her due to the fact that she would ne'er person that again. She could ne'er spell back. You tin ne'er enactment each that successful the box. At each times, she would accidental that she was disquieted astir however she was coming off, not retired of immoderate ego, but due to the fact that she wanted radical to cognize wherever her anxiousness was.

I thought that benignant of honesty should beryllium — and I deliberation Whitney did arsenic good — rewarded with america ever being honorable with her. We had a truly large dialog going backmost and distant arsenic filmmakers to a pistillate who was becoming, similar Michelle Obama would say, “living retired loud,” nether a batch of pressure, allowing america to ticker her.

The Big Payback, LLC / Headshot of Erika Alexander

A communal statement against reparations would beryllium erstwhile radical say, “There weren’t my crimes. Why should I beryllium the 1 to wage that debt?” How bash you attack those radical and antagonistic those viewpoints to explicate wherever you’re coming from?

Dow: What did Falkner say? “The past is ne'er dead. It’s not adjacent past.” It isn’t. There are 2 ways that I attack it. One is that the information is incontrovertible. If you look astatine the information trends — wealth, acquisition levels, owe rates, health, oregon decease rates — determination is an intransient spread betwixt Black and White Americans. Some of the information I’m definite you astir apt cognize is that White Americans person up to 11 to 14 times the wealthiness of Black Americans.

This thought that someway this magically happened … of course, the past exists successful the present. That was really what we archetypal acceptable retired to truly effort and see. A documentary is comparatively simple. It’s hard to bash analyzable things. A publication could beryllium written astir it. A truly analyzable publication astir however Evanston systematically excluded Black Evanstonians from participating civically and participating successful the institutions and things that allowed them to physique wealth.

Imagine a poker game wherever radical person been cheating. You’ve been playing against idiosyncratic who has been cheating for similar 400 years, and you drawback them cheating. They go, “Oh, yeah. You’re right. I’m sorry. That was truthful bad. I was cheating. I admit I was cheating. Cheating is terrible. I’m ne'er going to cheat again. But now, you can’t cheat, either. You each person to play by the rules, and I’m keeping each the chips.”

That’s benignant of the concern we’re in. The chips person been gathered connected this broadside of the table. In the 1960s and 1970s, White Americans made this thought like, “We’ll walk civilian rights. We hold that this is bad, but we’re inactive not consenting to compensate for the cheating we did implicit those decades and centuries.”

Who should wage the reparations? Does this autumn squarely upon the national government?

Alexander: Whitney volition speech astir the firm end, and I volition speech astir the government. Yes, it is the government’s indebtedness to pay. Let’s beryllium wide astir that. We are successful America, and they were the ones who allowed these things to hap for truthful agelong to circumstantial radical and then, afterward, allowed corporations and each sorts of different institutions to make laws and authorities straight against Black Americans.

It inactive goes connected to this day. You look astatine the redlining now, but besides what they bash with the voting successful the polls and each that stuff. It inactive goes on. I hatred to accidental it, but it’s destroying not Black people, [but] it’s destroying America. The indebtedness is theirs to pay. I should accidental ours to pay, [or] hers [America] to pay. And we’re looking guardant to her figuring it out.

Dow: What I truly similar astir this movie is that it addresses some questions. Yes, I judge there’s a nationalist indebtedness to pay, and that is the national government. The national authorities benefited done taxes. The national authorities created the policies that created immoderate of these injuries and inequities. But it’s besides section communities’ work to look astatine their ain spot successful the paradigm, their ain spot successful the equation, and determine the circumstantial mode that this has manifested itself here.

In Evanston, it happened to beryllium astir redlining existent estate. If you went to Jackson, Mississippi, it mightiness beryllium thing different. If you spell to San Diego, California, it’s thing different. What I similar astir this communicative is communities saying, to reply that earlier question you asked, “Yeah. I wasn’t progressive successful slavery, but this echo of bequest passed done each assemblage successful this country.” I deliberation it’s a productive workout and healing of sorts, and an workout that volition marque a much positive, stronger assemblage if you analyse your relation and however it manifests successful your community.

The Big Payback, LLC / Headshot of Whitney Dow

So Evanston came up with this thought of saying this is however it manifested here, truthful this is however it needs to beryllium addressed.” Your question astir who should pay. One of the astir absorbing things, it’s funded by a taxation connected ineligible marijuana. She [Simmons] saw this accidental for this caller tax.

White radical utilized to accidental erstwhile I would conscionable successful Evanston that they’re truthful arrogant of this, [and] truthful arrogant of Evanston that they’re doing this reparations program. I said,” What are you arrogant about? You didn’t suggest this thing. You didn’t walk this thing.” It’s a syntax. If you don’t bargain weed, it doesn’t interaction you. How and wherefore are you proud?

One of the things that happened recently, which makes maine truly excited, is they created a spot taxation that they’re present going to adhd to the fund. That, to me, is simply a overmuch much absorbing mode to bash it. If this is Evanston’s problem, everybody should lend to the reparations to effort and make healing.

Initially, I deliberation it was a bully mode in. You know, get your ft successful the doorway first. Then they effort and slam it, but you get the assemblage successful a small farther, and I deliberation that’s by opening that door. What Robin did, and we’ve said this a fig of times before, is that she showed that the intolerable was possible. It’s similar the four-minute mile. Once you interruption it, that clip keeps coming down. So erstwhile she showed that it was possible, each things are imaginable successful this realm.

Alexander: I bash person to say, Whitney, that they did nonstop representation, and they did walk it from a mostly White council, which is, to me, extraordinary. We person to springiness Evanston props for that. Also, knowing that it’s a motivation indebtedness that America indispensable pay, and successful that way, that’s much of a reckoning successful people’s hearts, to support denying that not being determination is simply a crushed wherefore they shouldn’t pay. Well, the Japanese were enactment into internment camps, and past successful 1988, they really did wage reparations to the tune of astir $1.6 cardinal erstwhile it was each dispersed out. They astatine slightest looked astatine that and got that done.

You can’t support pushing this down the elevation due to the fact that of age. The slaves had nary rights. They had nary representation. So to accidental they should person gotten it done, I’m like, “How? How could they person gotten it done erstwhile everybody astir them hated them and was hunting them and utilizing them, not conscionable for work, but for immoderate they wanted? We person to go, “Of course, they didn’t person immoderate mode to make this, but we do, truthful let’s fig it out.”

The Big Payback makes its tv debut connected PBS’ Emmy award-winning documentary anthology bid Independent Lens to commemorate Martin Luther King Jr. Day astatine 10 p.m. ET connected January 16, 2023 (check section listings). The movie volition besides beryllium disposable to watercourse connected the PBS Video app.